A New Change

To put it plain and simple: I'm done with New Horizons.

I did already discuss this in Xat, but to put it on paper, here. I've been having a serious problem trying to role play on NH for a long time now. Nothing on here is interesting to me. There is only one big plot going and, because of certain circumstances, that is also stuck, which irritates me more.

I have been thinking about an idea for a new site that would sort of continue off of what NH has currently had happening, but we'd be going back down to the basics of Bleach. We would write a site history that ends where Kaminari was still kidnapped, Dai was still in on people's shit list, Toja's rumors were still going around, and Tokyo Jihen was still an active thing. These things would seriously need to be altered to fit the site, but they'd be worked in to make sure previous threads were not a waste.

It would pretty much be a site that is completely alternate universe. As in, all the basics of Bleach are there, but the story line is our own. It would be like none of the canon characters existed, none of the canon plot existed, and only the base races of Bleach would be around. This means that the Sōnansha and Sugiura would not be on the new site, just: Shinigami, Human, Quincy, Hollow, Arrancar.

Why did I propose this?

First off, with the conversations about Sugiura going on, I'd rather say this now than after they were reworked, if people agreed with this idea.

I'm really am done with NH. It's like we're not even RPing Bleach anymore. I originally joined PH because I wanted to actually RP Bleach, but with all the random extras that were thrown in: Iramasha, Ziamichi, Sugiura, Angels, and Demons... Bleach didn't even really exist.

I have also proposed this because it is difficult as hell to work around Canon History and Canon Characters. Too many gaps, such as why so many Captains suddenly left their positions, make no sense and jumble up the plots and history of the Gotei. I'm tired of site history feeling forced and convoluted.

There are obviously some things that we would be able to do to make it our own.

Here are two ideas I had for this...

I propose is making it where no Captain position can be held for more than 100 years. It allows other characters to have had a chance and prevents morons like Yamamoto, who is a character I personally despise, from ever existing.

A Second one of those is that Squad 0 would be a "Call me if you need me" type Squad. It would be all Captains that had met their time limit put into a Squad of people that are only called on when major shit happens.

Edit After Partial Discussion

• Vizards would be altered so experimentation was not their only reason for existence.
  
• Character FC's originally from Bleach would be allowed to be used for custom characters on a new site, but they would obviously have to be altered to fit site history.

As I said in Xat, it is kinda...iffy, and the removal of the Sōnansha would mess up a couple of my characters...BUT on the other hand. Trying to work people into the Gotei, I think anyway, is a TREMENDOUS hassle. Which kinda made me not want to make Shinigami much. Wrapping my head around the site history with canons who mysteriously disappear is really annoying. Plus I'm sure with proper twists any and all damage to any characters as a result can be repaired.

Pfffbbb...
My problems with this stem from the following:
1) Like you said, Sugiura changes are undergoing. I'd like to see how they turn out. But also as you said, doing this before it gets too underway would be less painful I suppose...
2) I do like the custom races a lot.

Now, reasons I can agree with this:
1) I'm going to be reworking Tsubine into a Shinigami. None of the current proposed changes to Sugiura work with him, especially them being humans. 'Cause, well, he's dead. These changes will cause major problems with plot as-is, as somehow he's gotta get out of this position as Captain-Commander. A clean-ish slate is the best way to fix this.

2) You are exactly right about canon. It is hard to work around, especially with what you mentioned about why certain Captains or LTs left. I want to make Kenpachi's VC, but I have to come up with a reason why Yachiru isn't there. It's hard.

3) Some shit in canon just didn't make sense and haven't sat well with me in terms of RP. The Vizards' creation just sounds shoddy and frankly doesn't allow people to make Vizards as-written. But on a new site, the Vizards could be redone. The same applies for Quincy and Arrancar, as it's hard to make them based on actual canon.

All-in-all, this is a very interesting idea. It would allow us to clear out things from inactive or banned users *coughRavanacough* and we can fix things we didn't like about our own characters a lot easier. I'm not entirely sold on the idea, but I could definitely go with it.

As I stated before, I want to actually RP Bleach. Changing the way the canon races work is going to take some major convincing on my part. Quincy is understandable, but Vizards? They are just people infected with hollow, right? If you're talking about what Aizen did, that's only him taking advantage of something that already existed. I highly doubt that all of those people were actually the first Vizards, especially since Urahara already knew what hollowfication was.

I don't keep track of Bleach anymore, so I could be wrong about that, but yeah...

I'm also not 100% sure what you mean on the Vizard thing. I never saw becoming a Vizard as that hard a thing to come up with. I would really like to know WHAT you mean.

I am meaning the Aizen part. To me, making Vizards post-Aizen's experiments is a bit... odd. But without them being there in the first place, a better "origin story" could be put into place. Although, Aizen apparently came to the same conclusion before Urahara. It's a weird, mainly unknown thing... And I think a new site would be able to create a better origin story.

I...never saw it as that hindering, although to be fair my Vizard hollowfied because his mother was an Arrancar and her energy leaked into him in the womb, so I guess that isn't a fair comparison. Though I guess it could be manipulated to, not make there an insane amount of Vizard necessarily, but give more options when making one.

I never treated Vizards as something Aizen made. They weren't anything Aizen made. He just caused more of them to come about at once. Their origins, from what I understand, are still completely unknown, although I don't think you can make an origin for them.

Vizards are a mutation of Shinigami after being infected by a hollow. This is not something you can give an "origin". It could have happened in one place at the same time it happened in another. Giving them an "origin" makes it sound like they started off from one thing.

Like with the way I created Arisa; she was the first Vizard on NH. This technically makes no sense, but it could be easily changed to the "First Known Vizard". It's like trying to given an origin to human life. Some people say two naked people started it in a forest, while other's say we evolved from apes or w/e. Stories can be made, but nothing concluded.

And I would HIGHLY prefer NOT making a conclusion on where Vizards came from.

I'm fine with not having a stated origin, but the Vizards in canon (save for Ichigo), did come from Aizen. So that's more of what I'm going off of. I've also treated Arisa as the first known, rather than some Queen Vizard who spawned every vizard to be. I could be entirely wrong on that. I'm mainly just referring to cutting out the Hougyouku, the (IMO) BS Hollowfication experiments that were done by Aizen, and all that jazz. None of that ever made entire sense to me, so a new site without those cuts all of that out.

Those characters technically wouldn't have even existed, so that's kind of a given. At least, it would be if we decided to go with what I'm saying. The way this would work would mean that people could even use canon characters as FC's for their own custom characters. It would just be that Byakuya Kuchiki would not be The Byakuya Kuchiki, etc...

Edited First Post After This

Very true, very true. And that could be a neat idea! There are filler characters that have awesome looks but no one can really make them because, well, they're fillers, but still canon.
You're selling me more and more on this.

Some other stuff that I think could work on a new site:
1) A skill system. Something like PH's, but refined into something we could work better with.
2) I feel like the rules are a little cluttered (it's like reading the big Terms & Conditions shit), so maybe we could split it to different threads? I mean, we could do that here too, but yeah.
3) As much as I like 21xx for the site time, I also feel like... we forced it that way to get away from canon. Maybe, because we're removing Bleach canon, the site could start earlier than 21xx? Maybe just use the current year (2015)?

1) If we're putting in a skill system, it would have to be extremely thought on and discussed until it's practically perfected. Right now, we require people to write out how they feel their character's skill within something is, but that's so damn basic and repetitive, there really isn't much difference on people's skill level. I've thought of trying a number based system where it'd be level 1-10. Or using the "Beginner" "Advanced" system that we had been used to, but adding a few more in between such as Untrained, Beginner, Novice, Adept, Experienced, Advanced, Expert, Master, Grand-master.

2) I agree with that. I hate how the rules are right now. Reading that makes it extremely uninviting for anyone to actually want to stay on the site. I wouldn't mind revamping them as well, while making sure to not go with the "what if" or "it happened on this site" situations that often came out when creating the rules. Frankly, with all the rules set into place in the manner they are, I wouldn't really want to stick around either.

3) Uh. Yes. I'm so sick of the "Let's put it in the future" thing. That is beyond annoying! People seem to only want to do that to take advantage of technology advancements and things along those line. I'd rather we stick with what seems possible in this day and age.

My own addition to that year thing though... I do want to implement a rule/setting/possibility... Not sure what you'd call it... Where every certain amount of threads would make the site go forward a year. It's something we've tried in the past on both NH and AE, but it's never really been let known to the public. I like doing this because it allows relationships to flourish, injuries to heal, and characters to move on with their lives. Keeping it one year the entire time makes it where people are meeting, dating, falling in love, having kids, and marrying all in that year. And to people that advance their plots above the set year, they can get screwed over plot wise if suddenly a character dies in a war or something like that. So every 20-50 threads could push the site forward a year to prevent the stopping of plots. I would say somewhere around 50 because Kaminari herself has been in 20 threads, but that is all very close to each other.

1) I'd prefer not using numbers, but adding more in-between works well.
2) Yeah, I say we can remove some rules, since most of the problem makers behind them seem to be gone.
4) Besides skipping three, I actually like that. I'd like that to be known and be how it's used, but I also don't want it to be "Oh, 50 threads with Kaminari only, thus the site moves forward a year." I'd like a limit on how much a single character can contribute to pushing the site up.

My issue with that... You guys don't RP with each other enough. I'm literally the only one who RP's with everyone on the site, while you guys pretty much ignore each other. And that's mostly with Kaminari. Kaminari is my main character, and if I end up getting stuck on her plot because a year hasn't passed and no one else is f*cking RPing, I'm going to be pissed.

1. A skill system is fine, it just has to be worked so it doesn't bog us down.
2. Rules, yeah split them the fleeben flooben up. It's like reading a contract, except the rules aren't TRYING to screw you over.
3. The year passing thing had better not be too dramatic (50 threads does sound fine). I just don't want it moving TOO fast. And I can say on my end, when I can actually get threads STARTED (and have them not die because I've had a few die on me) I will be posting. Regardless though, I agree with Tsu. And, while I doubt we will ever really expand too far beyond our core 6 members, IF somehow we do and they are frequent posters, the number of threads for a year will have to be upped (again, only when we have enough activity across different characters that it becomes major).

I can't type Complex answers on this stupid phone, so I'll just say that I'm highly against the idea. I love Sugiura and Sōnansha and would not want to throw all of our work down the gutter. Hell, I don't even know if I'd stay if we did this. Might sound dramatic, but I don't enjoy seeing my work thrown under the bus.

Well then, if that is the case, there is a serious choice that people are going to have to make.

First off, your work isn't being thrown under the bus. When it comes to the Sugiura, you guys were planning on a huge rework in the first place. All this would do is allow you to not have to do the rework. When it comes to plots and characters, you'd be able to pretty much copy and paste all of your apps over and continue on, using NH as a reference to past threads while making alterations to prevent the extra races from being mentioned in history. This does nothing to offend your work at all. Since the Sōnansha are mine, I don't entirely care if they're gone.

As I said in the first post of this entire thing, I'm done with NH. So it seems that if you're not willing to change anything, everyone is going to have to make a choice on whether they agree or disagree.

If the choice is made not to change NH into something that actually makes sense, I'll just be leaving this site and sticking with AE only.

Actually Serenity, we were planning on a huge revamp/rework to appease site members, as you all wanted radical change, change so radical that as Tsubine mentioned before, messed up a few things for some of the ones who created it. Tsubine can't be a Sugi, so him and Shimura being mother and son is now a null-in-void plot. As far as work is concerned, I was reworking/revamping things for my characters anyways, so.... a new site isn't necessarily OUT of the question since I made it clear to anyone as long as I get to mythological references and mythos/mysticism flavor(Greek Mythos, Japanese Mythos, Hinduism, etc. etc.), I don't mind where the flow of things go... however, it is somewhat unfair if a new site is being made and that the people who suggested I change things, go over there, meaning the whole entire thread was moot.

So, as much as it'd pain me to say it, I'd probably follow suit with Silim. I've never really fully been committed to Bleach one way or another without their being little additives like new races.

In other words, I'd have to bow out from this dance if that's the plan of action.

*scratches head*  It isn't an optimum situation, but really, there is no optimal solution.

If we keep to NH, you two are happy about the Sug's, I'm happy about the Sōnansha.  Meanwhile others who have had no muse won't be and will have trouble being active in anything other than the ONE moving plot. If we move to a new site, you two won't be happy, while the others will have more muse and they'll be able to post more.

I will be completely honest, regardless of the outcome, you need to ask yourself if just saying "Bye bye" is really the answer.  Silim, you're gonna throw away all the plot with Toja?  Krito and Minami?  Me making Sailor moon as his mother?  There's work put into those is there not?  So shall that be wasted?

Agi, I know how much you love the Sug's, and I FEEL for you.  But is "bowing out of this dance" the answer?  What about Miki and her attempts to emotionally scar Minami?  So you might not have a race, but your character's can make an impact by simply INTERACTING, learning, and trying to get their own point across.  Besides, I actually look FORWARD to RPing with you.

Fact of the matter is Serenity isn't changing her mind.  I KNOW the only NH thing she could muster muse for recently has been the Kaminari stuff (believe me I have tried to get her to do other things), and over the last 3 or 4 days I can tell even that muse is fizzling.  That is why I am appealing to you.  REGARDLESS of how this ends, I don't want to lose either of you...I don't want to lose ANYONE, because I love all of you and you all mean a lot to me.  Work might be lost, so create new stories.  I KNOW what it is like to pour my soul into something and lose it, but I deprive myself of more by bailing than just making new stories to enjoy.  I'm not the HAPPIEST camper, but whatever happens I am DETERMINED to make the best of it.  I think you should at least try and do the same, I know I'll be much happier if you do.

After some in-depth talking with Tsubine, I realize that my feelings aren't necessarily a "lolbye, you guys go do your thing, I'll go do my own. " I think what really has me so against the idea is that you have to take it from my perspective. No offense to Serenity, but it just feels like this could have came at a sooner point in time, before I even made the Sugiura-fixer-upper thread. Essentially, the changes and ideas I was making just weren't for me because I could have simply went with Tsu's ideas and cut out the excess weight, which was nasuverse referencing, too many types, and so on and so forth. All of you came into my thread and critiqued me on what would make them popular... thus, imagine me coming upon a thread like this where Serenity is laying down the type of stuff presented. It feels like a slap in the face. Imagine, if you will, if you spent years making something(mind you, excluding whatever perception I had for vizards), that you thought was a good idea but eventually got bland, even for you.

Sugiura weren't neccesarily meant to be like Shinigami clones. They were supposed to be my rebellion to all the crazy/dbz-type stuff happening over at PH. And I felt mutated Shinigami OR having a Shinigami who wasn't born with the typical make up of a death god spirit seemed legit at the time. So, when I do present an open ear for change, I have to change things not only for myself but for others. I'm not sure if Tsubine's disappointed he couldn't make his character as a Sugiura again, but know that these changes that were going to be implemented were for the betterment of whoever posted there, but would be a bitch for us to rework. Even though I'm being pretty gentleman-like about this whole thing, it really does feel like a bitch slap.


I'll be honest and say i'm half way in and half way out after my convo with Tsubine. On one hand, I do love the terminology and concepts presented in Bleach. I just HATED how wacky it got after a certain point. It's not as if I'd not join but I don't think Miki could fit there until we flesh out how every race'll work there. If it's exactly how it is in Bleach, I can't do it. I'd already be compromising not being able to make some of my main characters like Iori and Misaiko, because they fit more into a Persona-like/Dies-Irae/Kajiri Kamui Kagura/Senshinkan(look those all up) universe than they do in Bleach. Which is another thing that'd prevent me from really becoming a full fledged, all hands on deck member.

I love series like the ones I mentioned because they have humans performing extraordinary feats, using mythological chants and superpowers, and creatures to do battle, and personal philosophies that might not make sense in our real world, but make their character that much more enticing; Hell, you can even say that Chuunibyou(since that's what i'm describing) is the only thing where philosophy can be used more than just some academic exercise. I'm pretty sure what Serenity described in the very first post does not match with these pleasures, so....

all in all, unfortunately, I'm half way in, and half way out on this subject.

Well, the problem there is...humans WILL have powers. They did in canon Bleach for one, and for two it would be silly limiting if they didn't. And I don't think it'd be quite as rare as it is in actual Bleach canon, since it doesn't have to be.

And a lot of what you said could still be done. Using some magical creature (albeit created from the person themselves, a la persona) mythical chants (just chants to get their energy flowing like an incantation), and superpowers would all be possible. Sure a bit of tweaking might be necessary, but humans doing extraordinary feats is not out of the question.

You know what, between my conversations between Tsubine and what you just said, you two make really good points. I always wondered for cases like Orihime and Chad, just where the hell did their powers originate from? Like beyond them being physical manifestations of their powers/wishes as Aizen described Orihime's as being a physical wish of her desire from the Hogyouku, HOW was that sort of thing even possible or whether or not even humans had a similar power that were around the world but secretive about it. I wondered besides maybe being plot-armor for a side character, how did Tatsuki tank Aizen's Reiatsu? I always just wondered why he couldn't explore an arc about that rather than overdoing things with the multiple races and making Ichigo have race schizophrenia. So... perhaps, what could make me be more enthralled by the idea is if we explore those things and make humans EXTRAordinarily cool. It'd certainly be a deal sweetener in moving me from a 50 50 to a 80/20 or 90/10 in my feelings about a new site.

Good news! I managed to secure a laptop with working Wlan from my brother for now. Let's get down to business with a halfway serviceable laptop!

After thinking everything over a bit and reading some more replies here from Agito, I'm slowly seeing things his way. I'd lose some characters who are very important to me since their identity is tied deeply into Sugiura mythology (Aura, Zeref, Zelretch, Kite, Takuri, Dark Kabuto who is currently getting revamped), but for quite a few others, the race is not tied deeply into who they are as a person. And yes, I love Toja's plot of slowly turning into a monster and resisting it simply because of how much he loves his squad and captain. I love Krito trying to convince himself about being evil. I love Hinawa and her uncontrolable ability to freeze everything around her. The problem is, I love ALL of my characters, or I would not be playing them to begin with.

Losing some of my most precious character and mythology creations is NOT an easy sell. I don't believe the Bleach universe is half as varied and interesting as we'd like to believe. Kubo is a good artist that is quite adapt at making amazing fight sequences, world-building was NEVER the strong suit of Bleach. Of course, this can be rectified by us as players, but setting our RP in a canon world of Bleach without canon characters is not going to be the magical fix-everything pill that we all dream of.

But something Snopy said reminded me of an important factor. I RP with you guys because I love every single one of you like a member of my own family. You can be annoying, hard to deal with, and frustrating, but you're family, goddammit. D<
You won't find me praising this idea, because I find it uneccessary. But if the majority wants it, I'll go through with it, if only to keep RPing with you guys. Important to note, though... If me and Agito can throw out the mythology of a race we created if the majority wants it to be, then Serenity, YOU can also stay on NH if the majority doesn't want the change - we're here to RP together, not just because of the setting of said RP, right? We'd need to make a poll for people to vote in, secure it against manipulation, and ask for anonymous votes.

On a Side-Note, which wars could a superhuman soldier have been used for as a killer? Trying to at least be ready to rewrite that part of Krito's backstory if this idea is followed through. I know very little about RL wars after WW2 besides that 'they happened'. First idea was Vietnam...

We all love our characters, man, so I can understand it. However, I think some of those characters would be more easily reworked than you think. Take Takuri, for example. Agito could just make Misaiko into one of the leaders of a high-ranking noble Soul Society family or something, and then Takuri works almost like she does on NH. Granted some history would definitely have to be altered, but I'm sure you could work something out.

With the idea of a new site, I'd be losing Aoko, who has one of my favorite powersets, Riesbyfe, and Isamu based on race and history alone. Isamu just could not work in any other setting, but I could easily redo him into being a normal Shinigami. Riesbyfe... well, Tsu's probably not gonna be old enough to have her as a kid, so it'd probably be easier to just drop her altogether. And I could rework Aoko into a human too. Even though I love the stories I wrote for them and came up for them... I can say that I think this might be for the better, at least in my view.

A big reason as to why I am approving of this... I said it in my first post, but currently, the Gotei is a clusterfuck in terms of history. It's fragile and literally the smallest thing destroys the history for it. And right now, Tsubine is going to need a major rework into a Shinigami with the Sugiura changes. So starting over with a clean slate is simply the easiest way for the Gotei to be untangled. Not to mention, even with OTHER characters... I'd be able to change things that I didn't like about them, rework parts of them that always seemed "eh" in hindsight this way. Or well, it sort-of forces me to, yanno?

You said something though, and it's something I'd like to clarify since I don't think it has been entirely clarified:
"[S]etting our RP in a canon world of Bleach without canon characters is not going to be the magical fix-everything pill that we all dream of."

You are exactly right, because that's what we did here on NH. It's a canon world without canon characters. And well, look at it. We still have to work around canons. And this is what I told Agito, which helped him: Don't think of it as a 'Bleach RP,' but think of it as an original RP using Bleach terminology. This means that not only would there be no Canon characters, but Canon events would be changed or scrubbed completely. For example, things like the Quincy Genocide may not have happened at all. Because you're right. Kubo has had interesting ideas (take what Agito said about humans with powers for example), but he never explores them properly.

As for Krito, I'll PM you a couple of things that might be able to work.

EDIT: OH YEAH, NEW THOUGHT.

Maybe we could make Hollows, you know, more of a threat? I was watching a scene from an early episode of Bleach (ep 8 to be exact) where Ichigo tried to use his Zanpakutō inside a hospital... Well, that big-ass sword didn't fit, which is why I was watching that scene. But Silim said something in xat that made me think: Nowadays, we have a lot of Captain-level Shinigami. This means that Hollows can basically be wiped out with a sneeze. I'd just like to make them more of a threat and less giant-humanoid-sticks-of-butter meant for hot knives to just cleave through.

@ Silim

Yes, we are a family. That I definitely agree with.

Quote :

"If me and Agito can throw out the mythology of a race we created if the majority wants it to be, then Serenity, YOU can also stay on NH if the majority doesn't want the change - we're here to RP together, not just because of the setting of said RP, right?"

I could stay, but will I? No. Understand, I don't make Sugiura. They are not the reason I am quitting NH. I don't want to be on NH anymore because of the convoluted history that makes little to no sense, the lack of any real RP beyond the stuff that I create/go with for the site, and my inability to get muse for it in the first place. I've had to force up a lot of the stuff I've been doing recently. It's not fun.

The biggest reason I proposed a new site is because I'm quitting NH anyway. This would be a way for me to stick around for Bleach stuff and be able to continue our plots without the headache that NH causes me. Whether or not there is a change, I don't want to be on a site that gives me a headache.

It sucks because I have plots I absolutely adore that are pretty much just starting on here, but when I think about how much irritation I get over NH in the first place, it really doesn't level out the pros and cons. As I said before, I'd stay on AE, but I am done with NH.

@ Tsubine

By increasing the power of the hollow, we'd likely increase the power of the Arrancar to make sense with it. I have no problem with this, since it might push people to actually make Arrancar in the first place, but however it's done needs to be done very carefully. Now, if we're just wanting to increase the power of the hollow, how? No one makes them as characters or SPC's, so half of the time people are just randomly throwing them into their threads to give a little bit of a battle sequence.

A NEW NOTE: I wanted to point this out...

One thing I feel people need to also realize, we're not a battle site. We don't throw in random big battles here and there. We like story, romance, and drama. I've had people complain about there not being a huge war or any real conflict between people, which is why I did that to Kaminari. I started a war. So, if you're one of those people who want a war, fighting, and all of that stuff... STOP depending on other people to create the story and conflict you want and do it yourself.